A Chat with Bill Palmer
"Never before revealed" interview with Bill Palmer, magician, writer, actor from Houston, Texas.
Today, I will be asking Bill about his passion with an age-old magic prop: the cups and balls.
As an amateur collector myself, I'm interested to know how he got started, and also pick his brain to unearth some invaluable tips and advice.
OK. Let's begin
Hello, Bill. First off, I would like to thank you for taking the time to talk to me.
OK. First question. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
A little bit of background about how you got involved in magic and what led you to become a huge collector in cups and balls?
Thank you, Kevin. Glad to be here.
Well, first of all, I live in Houston, Texas. I have a degree in Germanics from Rice University.
I have been a professional magician for about 35 years.
I'm semi-retired now, but I have done everything from close-up to full scale illusions.
I translate German magic books into English. I translated the Punx books, part of Ted Lesley's book, Paramiracles, and three books by Borodin, which I also published.
I am a Member of the Inner Magic Circle with Gold Star, also the International Brotherhood of Magicians -- Order of Merlin, and the Society of American Magicians.
My father was a musician and an amateur magician. His booking agent at the time of my birth was the owner of the local magic shop.
The first people I ever met outside my family were magicians. I worked at that magic shop when I was in junior high school and high school.
One of the sets of cups in the collection -- the Tannen's Stubby Cups -- were mine when I was in high school. The present collection is my second one.
I sold most of my first collection to Kenna Thompson about 8 years ago, keeping just a few sets, the Paul Fox cups, the Stubby cups, the Master Cup, Jr., the Charlie Miller cups and the Tayade cups that had belonged to Tom Palmer.
Most of the work I have done with the cups and balls has been as part of my Merlin show.
I did a chop cup routine with a leather cup that was made for me by one of the leather workers there. I still use it a lot.
In the fall of 2003, when I was taking Ted Lesley on a tour around the country, I started purchasing cups at all the magic shops I stopped in.
And suddenly, I had about 3 dozen sets. I'm not sure what it is about the cups and balls that I find fascinating.
Maybe it's that they tell us about the people who made them, who used them and who watched them. I began to search for specific cups.
Every time I hear about a new kind of cup, I'm at the head of the line, cash in hand, putting in my order.
Here's the most important thing, though. I'm not an expert. I just have a lot of cups. I also notice things about the cups that indicate who made them.
I'm pretty good at identifying the makers, even of unusual cups.
It's just a matter of getting lots of cups and talking to as many people as you can about the people who made the cups in the old days.
You learn a lot more by reading and listening than you do by writing and talking.
Wow! You have quite an impressive history, I would give an arm and a leg to have half the cups in your collection.
What sort of satisfaction or advantages could someone expect of being a collector?
Sometimes there is the satisfaction of finding an item that you thought you would never see.
Or perhaps, completing all of the products made by a specific company.
Sometimes you learn things about how various makers produced different items.
And can the average person make money with this?
The guys who make money are the people who sell the cups.
If you are collecting as an investment, you may be disappointed.
It takes a long time for a set of cups to appreciate in value.
If a set of cups is produced by the thousands, chances are that it will never be much more than a set of used cups, at least in our lifetime.
If you want to invest money, collect something like gold coins.
They have an intrinsic value. Cups are worth what someone will pay for them.
Pretty sound advice there. All you readers out there, it's not a good idea to collect cups and balls hoping to make a quick buck.
So, if someone is really passionate about this, what's the best way to get started and how much money would they need?
Start by getting all of the cups that are currently on the market.
You never know when some company will fold.
The amount of money they need is up to how much they want to spend.
The costly part is acquiring "key" cups.
These are the highly collectible cups that are generally no longer manufactured.
Ross Bertram cups, Paul Fox cups, P&L cups, Brema cups -- these are all highly collectible.
What are the top 3 things that someone should know in order to be a successful collector of cups and balls?
You must have a fairly good knowledge of the history of cups.
That way, you know what was produced, and when.
You must have an idea of how many of a given cup were produced.
This may be impossible to determine. And you must figure out where the cups are.
That's the hardest one. You do this by paying attention and by seeking out the old-timers that made them.
How much experience does a person need to become an expert? What kind of knowledge is required?
You need about 10 years more experience than I have.
Seriously, you must understand woodworking, metal working, the different techniques and how they were done. You need all the knowledge you have, and then some.
So what you are saying is, I would need to have the knowledge to be able to produce my own cups to understand the intracacies of other producers' cups? Am I right?
Not exactly. You need to know how the cups are produced so you can tell what techniques were used to make a particular set.
For example, if you see a set of a particular set of cups that were only made by the metal spinning process, but these are obviously CNC machined, then you would know you had a set of cups that were not what the seller claimed they were.
You don't need to be able to make them. You just need to know the techniques involved.
It's kind of like being an art appraiser or a musical instrument appraiser.
If you know how the work is done, you understand what you are looking at.
OK. Understood. Can you give us some real-life examples of how you determine a good set of cups and balls? What should one look for?
Look for symmetry. If the cups are new, make sure they are as clean as possible.
For performing, a good set of cups and balls will have enough heft that you know you are holding onto a piece of metal or wood.
Look for clean lines and balance.
What about getting a set for my own private collection? What advice would you give me?
Well, here are 4 simple rules to follow.
1) Be patient. You can't get it all at once.
2) Ask EVERYONE you know to help you find what you are looking for.
3) Know what you are unlikely to find. You won't be likely to buy Vernon's cups, for example.
4) Buy quality whenever possible.
What are some of the common problems to look out for when buying a set of a cups and balls?
Some people think their really cheap cups are worth a fortune.
Someone will have a set of Uday cups that are okay for a beginner, but they really aren't worth much.
Also, on ebay there are people who will misrepresent various items as being from sources other than they really are from.
There is a fellow who used to advertise cups that were made in China as being made in France by hand.
If you know the Magic Makers cups, you would recognize these instantly.
He put them in a cheap jewel box and had a price tag that was about 20 times what they were worth on them.
Looking at the 4 simple rules you gave, if I follow them,
I should be able to avoid most of the problems with overpriced cups.
Speaking of which, what can someone do to keep in touch with the current trends and latest thing to come out in the market?
Read the magazines. Check the magic forums.
What else can someone do to find more information about the cups and balls?
Google cups and balls. You will find a wealth of information.
Or visit the cups and balls museum http://www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
You will need a username and password to log in, but I will furnish those upon request.
I have been to the musuem, it's really great! I dare proclaim that it's the largest resource on the cups and balls that you can find online!
If you want to visit the musuem, just drop Bill an email.
He's a real gentleman and won't bite. He promises. You can contact him at curator@cupsandballsmuseum.com
I joined the Magic Collectors Association a couple of years ago.
These fellows have been very helpful to me.
I am in touch with a number of people who are dealers and fellow collectors.
They, too have helped me. I help them, as well. Collecting can be fun. You do need an understanding spouse if you are married.
Thank you Bill. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. I've got a lot of work ahead of me.
The very first thing on my list is convincing my wife.
That's going to take awhile, but I'll get there, with your advice today, I believe it has already cut down on my learning a few years.
There are actually several collector's groups.
There is the MCA, which is open to almost anyone who is a collector.
There is also the New England Magic Collectors' Association, which is a great group,
but it is a fairly closed group. You have to live in New England to join.
There are some international groups as well. The MCA will get you started, though.
Today, I will be asking Bill about his passion with an age-old magic prop: the cups and balls.
As an amateur collector myself, I'm interested to know how he got started, and also pick his brain to unearth some invaluable tips and advice.
OK. Let's begin
Hello, Bill. First off, I would like to thank you for taking the time to talk to me.
OK. First question. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
A little bit of background about how you got involved in magic and what led you to become a huge collector in cups and balls?
Thank you, Kevin. Glad to be here.
Well, first of all, I live in Houston, Texas. I have a degree in Germanics from Rice University.
I have been a professional magician for about 35 years.
I'm semi-retired now, but I have done everything from close-up to full scale illusions.
I translate German magic books into English. I translated the Punx books, part of Ted Lesley's book, Paramiracles, and three books by Borodin, which I also published.
I am a Member of the Inner Magic Circle with Gold Star, also the International Brotherhood of Magicians -- Order of Merlin, and the Society of American Magicians.
My father was a musician and an amateur magician. His booking agent at the time of my birth was the owner of the local magic shop.
The first people I ever met outside my family were magicians. I worked at that magic shop when I was in junior high school and high school.
One of the sets of cups in the collection -- the Tannen's Stubby Cups -- were mine when I was in high school. The present collection is my second one.
I sold most of my first collection to Kenna Thompson about 8 years ago, keeping just a few sets, the Paul Fox cups, the Stubby cups, the Master Cup, Jr., the Charlie Miller cups and the Tayade cups that had belonged to Tom Palmer.
Most of the work I have done with the cups and balls has been as part of my Merlin show.
I did a chop cup routine with a leather cup that was made for me by one of the leather workers there. I still use it a lot.
In the fall of 2003, when I was taking Ted Lesley on a tour around the country, I started purchasing cups at all the magic shops I stopped in.
And suddenly, I had about 3 dozen sets. I'm not sure what it is about the cups and balls that I find fascinating.
Maybe it's that they tell us about the people who made them, who used them and who watched them. I began to search for specific cups.
Every time I hear about a new kind of cup, I'm at the head of the line, cash in hand, putting in my order.
Here's the most important thing, though. I'm not an expert. I just have a lot of cups. I also notice things about the cups that indicate who made them.
I'm pretty good at identifying the makers, even of unusual cups.
It's just a matter of getting lots of cups and talking to as many people as you can about the people who made the cups in the old days.
You learn a lot more by reading and listening than you do by writing and talking.
Wow! You have quite an impressive history, I would give an arm and a leg to have half the cups in your collection.
What sort of satisfaction or advantages could someone expect of being a collector?
Sometimes there is the satisfaction of finding an item that you thought you would never see.
Or perhaps, completing all of the products made by a specific company.
Sometimes you learn things about how various makers produced different items.
And can the average person make money with this?
The guys who make money are the people who sell the cups.
If you are collecting as an investment, you may be disappointed.
It takes a long time for a set of cups to appreciate in value.
If a set of cups is produced by the thousands, chances are that it will never be much more than a set of used cups, at least in our lifetime.
If you want to invest money, collect something like gold coins.
They have an intrinsic value. Cups are worth what someone will pay for them.
Pretty sound advice there. All you readers out there, it's not a good idea to collect cups and balls hoping to make a quick buck.
So, if someone is really passionate about this, what's the best way to get started and how much money would they need?
Start by getting all of the cups that are currently on the market.
You never know when some company will fold.
The amount of money they need is up to how much they want to spend.
The costly part is acquiring "key" cups.
These are the highly collectible cups that are generally no longer manufactured.
Ross Bertram cups, Paul Fox cups, P&L cups, Brema cups -- these are all highly collectible.
What are the top 3 things that someone should know in order to be a successful collector of cups and balls?
You must have a fairly good knowledge of the history of cups.
That way, you know what was produced, and when.
You must have an idea of how many of a given cup were produced.
This may be impossible to determine. And you must figure out where the cups are.
That's the hardest one. You do this by paying attention and by seeking out the old-timers that made them.
How much experience does a person need to become an expert? What kind of knowledge is required?
You need about 10 years more experience than I have.
Seriously, you must understand woodworking, metal working, the different techniques and how they were done. You need all the knowledge you have, and then some.
So what you are saying is, I would need to have the knowledge to be able to produce my own cups to understand the intracacies of other producers' cups? Am I right?
Not exactly. You need to know how the cups are produced so you can tell what techniques were used to make a particular set.
For example, if you see a set of a particular set of cups that were only made by the metal spinning process, but these are obviously CNC machined, then you would know you had a set of cups that were not what the seller claimed they were.
You don't need to be able to make them. You just need to know the techniques involved.
It's kind of like being an art appraiser or a musical instrument appraiser.
If you know how the work is done, you understand what you are looking at.
OK. Understood. Can you give us some real-life examples of how you determine a good set of cups and balls? What should one look for?
Look for symmetry. If the cups are new, make sure they are as clean as possible.
For performing, a good set of cups and balls will have enough heft that you know you are holding onto a piece of metal or wood.
Look for clean lines and balance.
What about getting a set for my own private collection? What advice would you give me?
Well, here are 4 simple rules to follow.
1) Be patient. You can't get it all at once.
2) Ask EVERYONE you know to help you find what you are looking for.
3) Know what you are unlikely to find. You won't be likely to buy Vernon's cups, for example.
4) Buy quality whenever possible.
What are some of the common problems to look out for when buying a set of a cups and balls?
Some people think their really cheap cups are worth a fortune.
Someone will have a set of Uday cups that are okay for a beginner, but they really aren't worth much.
Also, on ebay there are people who will misrepresent various items as being from sources other than they really are from.
There is a fellow who used to advertise cups that were made in China as being made in France by hand.
If you know the Magic Makers cups, you would recognize these instantly.
He put them in a cheap jewel box and had a price tag that was about 20 times what they were worth on them.
Looking at the 4 simple rules you gave, if I follow them,
I should be able to avoid most of the problems with overpriced cups.
Speaking of which, what can someone do to keep in touch with the current trends and latest thing to come out in the market?
Read the magazines. Check the magic forums.
What else can someone do to find more information about the cups and balls?
Google cups and balls. You will find a wealth of information.
Or visit the cups and balls museum http://www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
You will need a username and password to log in, but I will furnish those upon request.
I have been to the musuem, it's really great! I dare proclaim that it's the largest resource on the cups and balls that you can find online!
If you want to visit the musuem, just drop Bill an email.
He's a real gentleman and won't bite. He promises. You can contact him at curator@cupsandballsmuseum.com
I joined the Magic Collectors Association a couple of years ago.
These fellows have been very helpful to me.
I am in touch with a number of people who are dealers and fellow collectors.
They, too have helped me. I help them, as well. Collecting can be fun. You do need an understanding spouse if you are married.
Thank you Bill. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. I've got a lot of work ahead of me.
The very first thing on my list is convincing my wife.
That's going to take awhile, but I'll get there, with your advice today, I believe it has already cut down on my learning a few years.
There are actually several collector's groups.
There is the MCA, which is open to almost anyone who is a collector.
There is also the New England Magic Collectors' Association, which is a great group,
but it is a fairly closed group. You have to live in New England to join.
There are some international groups as well. The MCA will get you started, though.
Labels: Interviews
Post a Comment